On Topic: Lili Hall and Todd Paulson Episode Eight

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Sanjit: Well I'm really fortunate to be able to be joined today by Lili Hall and Todd Paulson President CEO and Chief Creative Officer of Knock Incorporated. So thanks to both of you for joining me today.

Lili: Absolutely, we’re excited!

Todd: Yeah, thank you so much.

Sanjit: Well you know what I wanted to do is a start off by talking a little bit about what Knock is, what it does and maybe we can start there. And then we can talk a little bit about how Knock was formed but maybe we can just talk If you guys can provide a brief description about Knock and what some of the things that it does right now.

Todd: You know, Knock is a creative agency. We’re a full experience creative agency and we're driven to cultivate love and loyalty for brands. I mean it's what we are very good at is about experiences and making those happen. And what we have really done in our business is made sure that we're serving both large companies all the way down to small entrepreneurial startups and you know things that matter like pro bono and different nonprofit partners and advocacy groups to make the world a better place. So we have such a range of different types of clients you know. The history should start with Lili and how we started in all of this but we’ve changed so much over the years and you know once we started in retail and now have changed what our business is. Lili, do you want to give the history, cause you're the founder?

Lili: Sure. So I founded Knock in 2001, just shortly after 9/11 and went right into our first recession in 2002. But I would say that when we launched, it's interesting when we look at our first clients. We had a very large client, Fortune 10 now but I think it's this time it was probably Fortune 100 and then a startup. And so what's interesting I think about that is that today that’s still in our DNA. We really enjoy working with startups and entrepreneurs and as Todd just had just mentioned, doing a lot of work in the community and that breadth of work and experiences I think really enriches all the work that we do and fuels the soul of a lot of the people at Knock is what we continue to hear.

Sanjit: And you know certainly the Twin Cities is an area where you see quite a few creative agencies and it seems like a pretty rich and vibrant ecology for that. But what I'm struck by with what Knock is doing, is there’s, as you've mentioned, both of you mentioned a few times, this there's a strong social ethos to the work that Knock is doing. And I guess I'm interested in knowing is, where did that ethos come from? I know it sounds like Lili, that you've had international experiences in your past, through your education and beyond. And I’m just wondering is that in-built or is that something that's innate or is that something that was done over time and experience?

Lili: No, I would say that that’s who we are, it’s in the DNA of actually both of us. You know Todd has an interesting background and you know he can share it in a little bit. Yeah so I would say that you know I grew up born in Chicago to a Brazilian and then shipped off to Brazil at the age of 5. And really you know my family, my mom was a very generous soul, right. We lived with my grandparents, there were always people coming by the house and they were always helping people. So I think from a very early age I experienced you know what it was like to help the community, to help family members and you know I think that that's just part of who we were.

And then all the way through you know coming back to the US, my mom always had her door open and always gave what she could. So I think that that's definitely something how I grew up. But then also being in the metro area and having large organizations as role models and so you know we started doing pro bono very very early on, you know our feeling was going to let’s give what we can and if we can't give money we can give time and we can give design and art and strategy. And so I think we always looked to that the large companies, the Target’s, Best Buy, General Mills as role models so even though we give in a very different way, we look up to them and I think that's really been an important part you know of our existence.

Todd: You know and my story is similar but in a different place, I grew up in rural Minnesota, Southwestern Minnesota in a community called Bergen. My grandma was the same way, it was a small tight-knit community, she had a large family, eight children. And she was the person who was always have the open door and someone who needed a home for a holiday or needed something, she was there and then that was instilled into my parents. My parents are very about the community and giving back and helping out there so they're very much about being neighborly people. It's interesting you know they're in a pocket that's very conservative and yet they're very liberal down there and it's all because of my grandma and what she instilled of this open, inclusive idea. And I agree with you Lili completely, like as we transition to the Metro and just giving back to our community and feels like home to me.

Sanjit: So many large corporations, Lili you mentioned, you know a couple that you see them as models but they’ve also been up for a degree of critique in terms of kind of an overly capitalistic, an overly kind of profit-driven bottle. How do you, I’m just wondering, how do you extract the kind of good from values of institutions that you admire but also recognize where maybe they're falling short. Is it, I'm wondering kind of what's that process? Is that something that includes kind of discussion more broadly with your team? How are you able to not look at maybe either systems or organizations or industries with overly rose colored glasses I guess?

Lili: Well I think that you know, I mean for us, we’re really focused on Knock and what Knock is doing. And I would say that you know it's a very complex world. And you know we can sit and dissect and pull things apart but I would say that we're not necessarily looking at it through rose-colored glasses. I think what we're trying to see is the good and what we can do as an agency of our size with the resources we have. And you know looking to, I would say looking to the bigger organizations and corporations in our community as role models you know it has been I think more around inspiration and seeing the good that they do and the impact that have had in the community. And so and then you know I think we get approached a lot and and I remember even in the beginning when we started to do pro bono I wasn't quite sure how we could manage it or handle it.

And so we've learned along the way what we can do and what we can provide and what we can give and I think there's a concept that has to be all or nothing. And when I talk to other leaders or I talk to and not even just in our industry, just entrepreneurs in general it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can give what you're capable of, whether it's a few hours a week whether it's mentorship or an internship. So I think that you know, I really encourage people to do what they can but to do something. And so for us I think it's just you know, we've always looked at it like what is it that we're passionate about, where do we see need? We moved into North Minneapolis a decade ago, we’re in the Harrison neighborhood and it was really important for us to engage with the community, this was our home. And so from very early on we actually had a non-profit come and knock on our door, Adventure North, who needed some help with branding and we were really really excited about that opportunity because it felt good that they were excited we were there and that we could partner. So I would say that we've probably done way more than anybody ever thought we could do but it's the right thing to do for us.

Sanjit: That's great, thanks for that response. You know I’d love to kind of roll back to Lili as you were talking about how you founded Knock in 2001 and to where the point in time where the two of you started working together. And I know that when you and I met, I was fortunate to get a tour of the space at Knock and then was amazed to find that the two of you have been sharing an office for quite a while. And I guess if I can go back to that moment where the two of you started working together and did you, if you can describe that but also just talked about at what point in time that you realized, okay this is kind of a long-term thing and it’s not just a–– and oftentime when you mention startups earlier so many startups come and go and what I’m struck by the solidity and the adaptability that Knock has had over the years. It seems like that's got to be in part due to the dynamics that the two of you have together so I'd love to just hear a little bit more about that story.

Lili: Sure, you know Todd and I met actually before I launched Knock through a mutual friend. And when I was actually thinking about starting my own company I started to talk to people in the community, share my concept, what I was thinking about doing and launching and Todd was one of the first people that I talked to. And I would say our relationship started as a freelance contract relationship. Todd is super super talented so I was fortunate to we actually started working together on Knock’s very first project and I just loved working with him, I loved how we worked together. And I always tell people the right side of the brain and the left side of the brain and you know that continues but I just have an enormous amount of respect for Todd and our relationship. And so we kept going and I used to joke with Todd because I bootstrapped the companies, I self-funded and so I didn't have a lot of money and I couldn't afford a lot of things. And so I would joke with Todd like you need to be Knock’s creative director, I can't afford to pay you what you're worth but you need to be the creative director. He just what he did now and started laughing and he did that for a few years until finally we got to a place where things were really kind of rolling pretty quickly and growing and we had a big growth spurt. And so I came to him with a proposal to make him a partner in the business and so that was you know I think that he had other clients and so I every year I would do the 1099’s. And can I swear on here, uh is this, is that allowed? Cause I would say like 'shit I can’t afford this guy like he’s got other clients, like look at what we’re paying him there’s no way.' But I just kept insisting and begging and so he finally agreed. Right, Todd?

Todd: Yeah, exactly.

Sanjit: But do you have a slightly different perspective? I mean it sounds a little one sided. I wanted to make sure you get a chance to...

Todd: Yeah, no no no it's exactly the same way, I have mutual respect for Lillian. And you know when we first started, you know she comes from a background that wasn't from agency and creative and design. And so when we were working together I instantly personality-wise we worked together so so well. I wanted to really make sure in my time of consulting, as you know I was doing a good business like Lili said but I was running it all by myself and so I was doing all the roles I was creative director, accounts, production, billing, which I'm not good at. And so with Lily I wanted to make sure that it was a good relationship before we really started working together. And as time grew I mean just how we approach things is similar but with different lenses and we bring different things to the table which is so great and you know she's a mentor of mine, I respect her so much. And we joke about it like our relationship, we have so many more papers signed between each other than sometimes our actual life partners, and I’ve been blessed that I found Lili because we just gel so well. And yet we challenge each other and it's a kind of challenge that's good because good things come out of it. You know we do projects together and we're just like what about this, what about that, question each other and we get to better solutions because of each other and that collaboration goes through all of our agency. Like you mentioned we've office together virtually since the beginning and that collaboration runs through the DNA of our agency because of that and it’s part of our values of what we believe in.

Sanjit: And you know what I’m struck by in hearing both of you talk about it, is that it certainly seems like on one hand it’s a solid but evolving rapport and relationship that the two of you have. And I guess I keep thinking of a series of terms that in some ways get so overly used that, are there are times where I want to ban them from discourse you know just because I think they sometimes don't allow us to say what we really mean and one of those words is collaboration. I think collaboration is such a convenient talk word when we're trying to talk about something more and so I guess you know I'd love to know how I'm assuming the notion of collaboration between the two of you has evolved over time and is probably been either pushed the limit or stressed or stretched in different ways. I guess I’m just wondering if the two of you can give an example or maybe each one of you can give an example where you think that the ability for you working together, and I'm not hunting for a problem. I'm just wondering if you felt like that the capacity for collaboration was really pushed in some way by a single problem or by an issue that you have to contend with?

Lili: Well I’ll just kind of share my experience with collaboration and it was really important to me when I launched Knock that people worked together. And I think my background and my experience is really you know, what I had experienced in other you know one other agency you know that I had come from. It was a small boutique agency and I was sort of struck by and I was new in the business so I came out of the fashion and you know sporting goods world and apparel and so I got to my agency and it was small it was wonderful, they did great work. But I was just kind of blown away by the fact that all the creators were on one side of the building when it was a one-level building and the account and project managers and ops we're on the other side. And I always thought that was really odd and again that was me being new and not really knowing that that's really how most agencies set their offices up. But even prior to that, my experience you know working with a global company called Adidas I worked for the America's team and I was really surprised at the silos there as well. You know the tension between sales and marketing they literally did not like each other and that's I think really common in a lot of organizations. And to me it just never made any sense because I could not do my job without the support of a great marketing partner. And so launching Knock, that was something that was really important to me and when I spoke with Todd and others you know I really wanted to understand stylistically how they worked and how they approached the work. Because there’s a lot of really talented people out there but if you are only interested in working in a silo and coming back and presenting your work that was something that I was not that interested in.

You know as Todd said it's getting in a room, it's bringing our experiences, our lenses to a project. Because you know if we all come from the same background and we all come with the same lenses, you know we're going to look at the problem in the same way. So I think that that was very strategic early on because I didn't enjoy that tension and there can be tension and I think tension is good. But it's when they're challenging each other like hey have you thought about it this way this is what I see. I always you know it's interesting being in the office with Todd because you know the creative and all of that defaults to Todd but I'll share with him, you know Todd this is what I'm seeing I can't articulate it, I can't tell you how to fix it but this is what I see. And he's always great like oh that's okay I get what you're seeing what you're saying and so yeah that's brought throughout the office. The more diverse of a staff you have the more lenses you know you'll have and the more people can raise their hand and share their ideas and concerns.

Todd: I think to add on to that the results of all of that is there’s, we don't believe in ego’s in our agency at all. It's about we, it's about us working together. And so that sometimes there's been you know people in other agencies that I've been there's been ego’s and people that are kind of running it. And we believe everyone's voice matters and to get to the best solution, that’s important. And like Lily said, lenses and different voices create that and we create better product because of that. And so that's what that means for us is working together to create and solve problems.

Sanjit: You know I am curious to know, do you think those problems have gotten more complicated? Do you think they've become or do you feel like they're easier to handle because of the wealth of experience? I'm just curious to know.

Todd: No, it's actually getting harder. I mean it really is harder, we’re learning so much as we go through this and you know we’re continuous learning, it is what we believe in. And so we want the input from you know the people that are new in our industry to bring new ideas, we want outside voices to help us learn. It’s, the problems have gotten harder and we, you know, creating solutions have gotten harder.

Sanjit: Can you put a little more color on that Todd? How are things gotten harder, in what way?

Todd: Well I think us really waking up and really looking at our industry and what is you know is the non diversity in our industry. And so as we do that, we're trying to learn and understand and bring more people into our industry so we have a better well-rounded view of the world and that's critical. And you know it's something that we're putting action to, so that we can make, understand...

Lili: I think that I’ll just chime in. I think that the world, these issues have always existed I think what's great is that the consumer is demanding change and they have a voice with brands. And I think that that’s in a platform and so I think where it's become more complex. I actually think it's always been like this, it's just that people are one, fed up and two, are able to raise their concerns. You know when you get a catalog or you see something and you don't see yourself represented people have a platform now where they can express their concern, frustration. And it’s really important that brands and companies and every all of us you know wake up and listen and make sure that we're you know making change and being inclusive. And I think it's been there, I think it's just now that people are just tired.

Sanjit: Yeah there is certainly a tremendous degree of exhaustion. And I guess one of the things I'm looking at and thinking about the commitment that Knock has to a pro bono work. Is what you're looking for when you take on a project with a corporation or a part of industry similar to what you're looking at when you're taking on a pro bono client? And I'm kind of wanting to know, there are some organizations I'm thinking for example of IDO of when they created IDO.org. I think in part they're also looking at a way that they created a different lobe, specifically focused on commercial enterprise and social change in a certain way. Does Knock embrace the idea of having a kind of a firewall, being able to say this is pro bono and this is where we embrace kind of a culture that's really focused on non-profit support and development and social change. And then a separate kind of set of ethos for saying this is our criteria when we work with corporate clientele. I’m just wondering, what's the operational model of how you balance the two and do you find yourself looking for commonalities when you take on whether a corporate client or whether you take on a non-profit?

Lili: Well I would say we're not that organized, it's just been more organic. I would say that.

Sanjit: Fair enough.

Lili: Yeah I mean you know from the very beginning I mean I remember being approached to do a pro bono project. It was an organization called save suicide, suicide awareness voices of education, very intense subject. This is close to, I don’t know Todd, seventeen, eighteen years ago.

Todd: Yeah, probably eighteen.

Lili: Um very very early in the mental help space, not early in the mental health space, early in recognizing and you know for people to be able to raise their hand and ask for help. But I would say that it was very organic. I think the one thing that we learned in the process was things that we are passionate about with are you know arts, education, youth, social causes, those are the things that we have gotten involved in. I wouldn't say a lot of the time people do seek us out and we want to make sure that it is definitely something that we’re passionate about but I would say you know today the work tends to be around those causes. We do not treat our pro bono client any differently than our corporate clients, if we take on a pro bono client you know it is the same as if they are paying client. There's no B team it’s the A-Team you know we take on, what we want to make sure is, we have bandwidth. And so you know we’ll commit to a certain amount of clients per year in certain amount of hours. We always exceed it because there's always more and so you know we're not as boxed into to a formula. It's definitely things that we get really really excited about and feel that you know we can bring value and help these nonprofits that are, as you know struggling. You know there's really not a lot of money for marketing and so it's been a great experience.

Todd: You know when we're working with companies and nonprofits we really look to make sure that they align with our values and that is critical of our decision. And then also looking for a staff, if they believe in it, in the values and they signed up for a values as coming in here but there may be different idiosyncrasies that they don't believe in, so we don't have someone work on something they don't fully believe in.

Sanjit: Right yeah and I guess it kind of makes me think about as you start to bring in people to work in the orbit of Knock and I’ve certainly met members of your team overtime. I guess I'm wondering from the two of you, what are the beyond the kind of functionality and the skill sets that they're bringing. I guess I'm wondering is there, you know I’m thinking of it almost feel like the biblical term, the shibboleth. Is there a passcode that they need, is there certain things that you think that they need to hit in order to be part of Knock team culture? And beyond maybe being a generous spirit. I guess I’m just kind of wondering, it seems like it's such a small intimate cross-pollinating environment but it seems like that you're probably also looking carefully for something in addition to what's on paper or what's immediately presented in terms of skill sets and acumen.

Lili: I think today, I mean I think early on you know, I'm curious by nature and I'm drawn to people that don't necessarily look like me or have the same background as I do. And so I’ve you know and I think that comes from you know having lived abroad, having had the upbringing that I’ve had. And so I tend to be drawn to people that have different backgrounds and experiences. I would say that today you know we, it's interesting when people come in or reach out you know they see when they walk in that door and you’ve experienced it, that they can feel it. They can feel the there's a vibe in the office that's very welcoming you know from the time people walk into the front door we want to make sure that they're taken care of, that they're attended to and it's very much like treating it, it's our home. So you greet people at the door or you walk people to the door or you offer them inside things people right away feel comfortable. They feel welcomed and then they can sense the vibe in the staff you know the laughter in the background and people working together and they see the collaboration.

And so I would say when were interviewing people, when people bring that up, wow you know it is such a good feeling here or I love you know how diverse your agency is or I’ve done my homework. And so you start to to pick up on the fact that those are things that they value. I would say we don't always get it right but I think we, our process now it's not just one person interviewing one person. We want them to meet the team, we want them to meet parts of the leadership team and I think really through that interviewing process you really get a sense of who they are and people that are passionate. I mean Todd, Todd has this great sense when people are passionate about design and about you know the craft and I think you can pick that up in the interview.

So it’s a process, we aren’t always running and rushing to hire. I think the other thing too that we do that has been great is, we're constantly meeting with people. Whether we have something in that moment or not. So it's not like oh we need to hire somebody go and talk to 20 people, it's this fluid process and I think that that's been a great thing too. We've got an amazing tool we developed, and so somebody comes in and even if we don't have something at the time you know we're able to get a sense of what they're interested in and what they might be good at. And then we keep a database and so as we, when business or as we grow we’re able to tap into some of the people that we've been meeting with over the years.

Todd: I think it's a really good point, is what you had said earlier about us constantly talking with people, that's what we are constantly doing. We never like you said to like put out uh–

Lili: Uh job post.

Todd: Post. Thank you I’m going to start over, I was like trapped in that word. We never put out a job post and then wait with 20 resumes. What we're doing is we're constantly talking with people, going out past our networks, talking to people and finding the right kind of fits for us. And people that will also make us grow as an agency with new perspectives. And so what you know when we don't know we don't, we look at the resume, we look at the portfolio and that's critical but we're looking for their character. And what they can bring to it and so there's characteristics that are of the people that we work with at Knock. They're positive and grateful, have vision and listen. And it's those kind of things help us define the character of a person when we're talking with them and that's how we hire, I think more for character.

Sanjit: Do you ever pass on a project because you feel like that a potential client doesn't get your values?

Lili and Todd: Yes, yes, yes.

Sanjit: Can you kind of describe without naming names and organizations to get you in, but can you describe an example of that? Just to some color on it.

Lili: Yes, I mean I would say you know in the 19 years we've been in business, we tend to take, we always err on the side of the glass half-full right. Like oh this will be great or you know we do get excited, I would say that the vetting process has gotten better. And so I would say early on and like anything it's like dating or meeting somebody you know if those early conversations tend to be, you know if the person's rude or just they don't value what Knock can bring. Or not even just Knock, if they don't value that what we do impacts their business or their bottom line or whatever their objective is, we pick up on that right away. And you know what, if there is tension and sort of a bad feeling from the beginning, that does not get better.

So we've learned the hard way. And so I think that for us we really we have questions and we vet things and then we talk to each other. We have honest conversations like I don't think this is a good fit, I don't think that they value our industry, I don’t think they value this process and so we have declined. And so I think we also look at it in a couple of ways, there's people who've been through this process. Maybe they've had other agency relationships and then we also have, you know when we are working with early-stage and startups that maybe they haven't had this experience and so do we need to shepherd them along and we're willing to do that, we're willing to educate and help people in the process. But the respect is a huge part of our culture and if this person isn't respecting us in these first conversations, you know what are they going to be like to our teams. And then we've also had to resign clients who became abusive or became disrespectful.

Todd: Disrespected the process.

Lili: Yeah and the staff, mainly the people like, if they’re mean to our people then you know, that's not a good relationship.

Sanjit: Yeah, I mean it seems like that then it just becomes a transactional relationship and it sounds like you're trying to–

Todd: We’re not interested in that.

Sanjit: Yeah it sounds like you’re trying to build something where there’s a greater network that you’re trying to create. You know I’d love to shift the conversation to thoughts about culture and cultural leadership. Um and I know it's in some ways, kind of anamorphic topic but it's one certainly coming up for me and over here at MCAD more. And I know Todd is a member of the board, you've been hearing me talk about it. But I just kind of wanted to know if, has the notion of cultural leadership, in the work at Knock, certainly I see a lot of the work that we both do is really exemplifying aspects of cultural leadership. And I'm just wondering as you start to think about leadership qualities whether you're calling a cultural leadership or something else. Are there ways that you feel like that notion has evolved or changed over time?

Todd: Yeah I believe it has you know we're about developing leaders is our goal. A cultural, creative leaders, I mean we just are developing leaders and we want them to be socially aware and culturally conscious of things and encourage curiosity and courage and passion for social justice and equity. And so we’re very much focused on building a team that is for the future and it's evolved like as time has gone on.

Lili: And I think too that I mean for us that our people have always been the most important part of the bus- I mean it's our people are number one, when you put your people first and you need to develop and we have a very strong culture at Knock, very tight-knit as you said. But we're also very open to new ideas and there's a culture of sharing, it's constantly, it's all day long. You know we’ve got trend reports going out or people sharing interesting articles. We've invested a lot in diversity, equity, and inclusion workshops over the years that also has evolved. We introduce you know we host all kinds of events in the office and we invite our staff to join. Our staff brings us ideas of things that they get excited about. We have a staff meeting every Monday morning where we do presentations. So there is this constant idea flowing and curiosity and I think that that excites people and I think it shows that we're interested in other conversations and other things in the world. And so I think when you open that up and when we show and share, people jump on to that and we get emails. You know we got one last night from a freelance person that has seen some of the things that we have gotten involved with just introducing something else and so I think that people really enjoy that because they're learning. Every day I learn and I think um and that––

Todd: And they’re seeking continuous growth is what and that's what we're trying to provide is that they can continue to learn and grow.

Sanjit: You know to that end I think one of the more abused terms has been the notion of mentorship which I think started to almost become bastardized into feeling like someone with more experience giving advice to someone with less experience. But you know one thing that struck me from meeting some members of your team is that it does feel like it's a real mentorship focused environment in a way that’s less about one person giving advice to someone else but people sharing their experiences and insights across both ways from varied perspectives. And I guess I’m wondering, as leaders of an organization, how do you make sure that there is the time and the space and the ability for that to still occur when you got 19,000 deadlines?

Todd: I think you know by creating these, what we had talked about earlier, about working together. We’ve fo- we’ve created these kind of tight-knit relationships by cross-functional teams, people working with all different types of people within there. And you learn so much from each other, so that set up of us working together has created this kind of, like the overused word of mentorship it's like someone who's new in the industry is teaching us exactly what to do socially and vice versa. So it's this––

Lili: Reverse mentorship

Todd: Reverse mentorship, exactly. And I think that working together in that tight-knit group that we have has really been the thing that's been successful. You know as we’ve gone into the pandemic that collaboration, I do sense that we're struggling a little bit with the collaboration piece like we're getting the work done, it looks amazing. But I think those kind of learning and growing from other people, you miss that cause you're having to schedule a zoom meeting and there's not that just I want to pick your brain and learn about this, help me understand something. I think we're missing some of that now.

Sanjit: That’s I mean that’s gotta be tough and I mean and I think that’s tough across the board. Right because it's the I don't know if people really have water coolers any more, but it's the water cooler. I feel like I just dated myself but like just it is the kind of water cooler conversation right. It’s the informal exchange of ideas it's the what are you having for lunch, you know what are you working on and then that leads to an exponential innovation. And I you know it's been 40 minutes into this conversation we're finally talking about the pandemic and I guess that’s in some ways a perfect segue too. I wonder you know, are there specific assumptions that the two of you have made either about working with each other or about Knock itself or even more broadly if we can pan out to the field of design and creative work. That you think have been completely exploded or obliterated over the past few months of living with this pandemic?

Lili: Oh it's been tough. I mean as Todd said you know for us because that environment is so dynamic and energetic, I was actually traveling and came back. We were prepared, so you know my husband's from Italy, and we're very global at Knock and so we've been following the virus and what was happening. And at some point you know Todd said this is going to happen here, we're going to shut down, we're going to have to shut down. And so we started to prepare, you know we went to our wonderful IT staff and just said we need to be ready 100% hardware and software to work from home and we were ready about a week and a half or two weeks before the governor shut the state down. And we were actually doing a staff meeting and telling people

Todd: Right, and our test.

Lili: Yeah, go home and practice. Let’s practice with teams and um–

Todd: That was the Friday before.

Lili: So the preparation parts was very smooth and then when you know we made the call that we're not coming back to the office, I was actually traveling and when I got back I remember going to the office it was a Saturday and it was just empty and computers you know we're gone. And I literally stood in the office and just burst into tears. I was just like when are we ever going to be together again? When is this office ever going to be filled with a hundred and whatever people again? It was super emotional because we know how important that environment is and even with our staff you know we're doing a slow re-entry you from a mental health standpoint. I mean there are, we definitely have employees that are loving and enjoying it and it's working well but we have quite a few people myself included and I would say Todd included–

Todd: Yeah, me too.

Lili: You know from a mental health standpoint we need to be in there and and so what we did is we, well Todd actually pulled together an incredible team that was called the homecoming committee to try to figure out how we could get people back into the office, especially the people that really were struggling at home. And so that team did a fantastic job, safety being number one and following all the protocols that the CDC has recommended and the governor has recommended. But it's been really important for some people to be there and so on a given day today there's maybe 12-15 people that come and go. But even that little moment you know you're waving across the office with a mask on has I think really really helped people out.

But I would say that we're taking it one week at a time and we're learning every week. And it was funny, in the beginning and I’m probably going to get into trouble for saying this, but in the beginning there was all this excitement about how my gosh, not just at Knock I mean all of my networks this is working so well and everyone's so productive. And then I just kept saying that's because we have to be. There is nothing open, there is nothing for people to do or a place to go. I said just wait until things start to reopen, it’s gonna be interesting. And so you know we start to see a little bit of that, people started getting involved in other things that maybe isn't related to work but I would say for the most part our staff has been pretty phenomenal.

Todd: You know, the one thing to build on that, is so we you know like I said we’re a very tight-knit group so when we did go to zoom meetings and all of that and collaborating in that way we maintained and we did an amazing job doing that. When we did a survey about coming back for the homecoming what was resounding, what people were missing was I want to be working together with people but currently, I'm concerned. And that's what we put safety and health first and that's where we've always been and so we've now the office has become by appointment so you can come in and collaborate with the team and work together or you can come in and have a mental break from your family or your house. So it's been, people really miss the camaraderie of our teams.

Sanjit: I guess I'm wondering what are you learning, in a sense. Are there things that you didn't think you have the capacity to do that you do now? Are there things that you feel like you're going to tell clients, advise them differently now that based on what you’re learning? You know, I’ll give you an example, and you know Todd I think this is something we’ve talked about in conversations with the board. Where I'd always lamented there isn't a chance for us to all come together, faculty, students and staff, physically to have a conversation about meaningful ideas. And here we are, we’re going to have that opportunity which we’re gonna do it virtually but we realize that there are ways that we can provide connectivity that we didn't think we had the ability to when we were so focused on the physical environment. So I guess I’m wondering what are you, what’s Knock learning, what’s the two of you learning? What are things that you think you'll be doing differently in the future?

Todd: I think what you just said is a great example, and that's what's happening in Knock as well. Like before we thought we all had to be in the same place to make something happen, we don't, we can do that. And we've had large company meetings about you know the state of the State, of how we're doing in that, transparency and everyone tuned in. Where as you know when we tried to get together with people that would never happen and so we've changed, and for the better, because it's more inclusive, everyone could be involved. Whereas before we would have everyone in a group and we have people that are in different parts of the country like New York and–

Lili: Chicago.

Todd: Chicago and they joined in but now we're all joining in so there's kind of this better connected, connectivity and that regard as a company so I definitely think we've learned that way.

Sanjit: Lili, anything to add to that?

Lili: Um I think we're having to figure out how to engage people that maybe aren't even at Knock. You know that the people that didn't have the loudest voices in the room and just making sure that we're being sensitive you know, when you're on a zoom call just making sure I think we're more aware of just making sure that we're looking at their faces and trying to pick up on their body language. And just making sure that they're okay or you can sort of tell that they want to say something you can, maybe not call them out, but you can do a little note in the chat directed like hey you know do you want to share anything any thoughts. I think that that's the one thing that we're really good at in person. You can kind of tell someone starting to fidget but they're not really saying anything and I think that that's something that we're learning how to do via these tools. And just making sure and I would say that we're probably doing a better job of checking in with people.

Todd: Yeah, Lili that’s what I was going to add on.

Lili: Yeah I sense that something, this person seems off and so you know maybe we didn’t because we were going a hundred fifty miles an hour before you know really taking the time. If I sense that someone seems sad just making sure that, whether I feel comfortable reaching out to that person or if I know that someone else is closer to them, just going and saying is person okay. You know I think there's a lot going on, we've been fortunate at Knock because we have not done any furloughs or pay cuts knock on wood hopefully we can get through this. You know we got the PPP Loan in the first round, we've managed our business well. We’re independent, so Todd and I can sit down and make decisions about what needs to happen from a budget standpoint. And you know from cutting our salaries to you know, those are the things that we can prioritize. And so it was, it's been really important for us to hold on to our staff. But what we're experiencing is, you know people are experiencing things in their personal lives that have nothing to do with work and so I think it's just making sure that we're being sensitive to what's happening. It's interesting with the tracking you know, the government, everyone's tracking the number of people that are unemployed but they're not tracking are the number of people that have had pay reductions and you know–

Todd: Have to take on more work because they don’t have a team.

Lili: Taking on three work loads because their team has been furloughed and even from our client’s perspective, you know their needs and we're sensing just a lot of stress with what's happening. And so I think for us just that's a whole other lens, it's a whole other, we feel a responsibility to make sure that not just financially and physically are people well, but mentally. That's really something that I would say we've always been a very empathetic company but I would say more so now, there's just a lot of tough stuff happening.

Todd: Yeah I think you know to build on that is like the status’s have become more valuable for my teams, in that like them being able to hear what's happening in the rest of the business on a weekly basis, monthly basis is valuable to them. And they want to understand what's happening, you know they want reassurement that things are going to be okay and I can’t always do that. But you know like it's been vital that the statuses have been happening between the teams because they can hear what's happening in other sides of the business, we got a new client, this is what's happening. They want that and it helps with the anxiety of it all. And I, like Lili said, I can see in their eyes if they're concerned or can see like if they have things that we have these I feel in a way, I feel more connected to everyone now than I did before because I’m checking in with them and seeing how both life and work are going. And I think that the relationship has gotten closer in some regards in that way.

Sanjit: You know I can imagine, in some ways it makes you appreciate the nuances of relationships and interactions so much more. I know I certainly lament, here I am in my empty office and knowing that I haven't had a chance to have a sit-down with my team since the middle of March. And there's a disruption like mentioned, with body language and cues that you get with that physicality. You know, in the time that we have left, I mean it seems like certainly the pan– the global pandemic was one that was a really kind of laid upon us, and then upon that especially within this community was just the searing events of Mr. Floyd’s murder and the aftermath. And certainly just geographically where Knock is located but also just with both of your commitments in terms of the community and Lili being on the board of Juxtaposition Arts. I guess I just wanted to know, has that recalibrated your view about Knock’s purpose or has it shifted priorities, are you starting to do kind of a rethink? How have you started to think as you exist in the orbits of these two pandemics, the pandemic of racism and how blatantly apparent it is in this country now? Yeah I'm just curious to know and in some ways it may be too early but it seems like I wanted to know what some of your immediate observations and possible changes that you're thinking about.

Lili: Yeah I mean I think for us, as you shared, we’re in the Harrison neighborhood in North Minneapolis. And we've been very active in North Minneapolis with several nonprofits. You know the language works, with youth at risk, we've got our relationship with Juxtaposition Arts we have you know we did the project North Market. You know which North Minneapolis didn't have a functioning full-service grocery store for 10 years, it’s been a food desert.

And I think for us during the protests and some of the riots, you know just making it for, you know our hearts were not so much for our office. I mean we boarded up, it was a very surreal experience. But I think we were more concerned about what was going to happen to some of our neighbors who are more vulnerable than we are, I mean of course we were nervous. And every morning we looked at our phones to see if our building was burnt down but for the most part we have insurance, you know there was nobody there, no one was going to get hurt. We were more concerned about that grocery store and making sure that nothing is going to happen to that store and we have a lot of employees who live in North Minneapolis and making sure that they were safe. And it was really cool to see even in South, obviously in South Minneapolis we have several employees know that were really close to where George Floyd was murdered. And we have our own internal communication tool called trillion and it was amazing. I mean I was in tears to see people offering for people to stay with them that they didn't even know each other. Like hey I have an extra room, you can come stay here if you don't feel safe.

So there was a lot of really incredible things happening but I would say that our commitment is even stronger. You know to see the activity that went on and people wanting to help and people wanting to do something. And again, more sharing I mean we have staff who you know hey I'm going to go volunteer at this place or this organization needs here's a whole list of things that they need. So definitely continued and obviously a bigger commitment but I think what it did is it really brought awareness to maybe the rest of the staff that didn't have as much experience with the North and South Minneapolis communities. So definitely a bigger commitment and it's something, it was heartbreaking you know. I had family all over the world reaching out to see if we were okay and in just our hearts were all breaking for this man and his family and the community. We actually got on Zoom right away, I think in less than 48 hours with the entire staff. Just you know it wasn't even organized, I mean there was no agenda at, we just talk, we knew–

Todd: Talk about–

Lili: Yeah people were hurting and people needed to–

Todd: Were scared–

Lili: To be together and so 80 people joined that call, like very little notice. And it was powerful to hear from especially our black employees that were really, we didn't ask them to talk, they just wanted to share what they were feeling. And I think for the rest of the staff to listen to their daily experiences, some of them were really open and vulnerable. And I think what it's done is the work that we've been doing, we realized the foundational work around diversity, equity, and inclusion for us, we sensed a desire that we need to go even deeper. Get more uncomfortable, get you know, we need to all be educated. And so we're in the process of hiring the Woke Coach, I don't know if you know Seena Hodges, to come in and do more work with our staff around these conversations.

Todd: And we worked with BrandLab in the past and–

Lili: Yes yes.

Todd: And various other groups that are helping us educate. What’s been really cool is that our staff is so committed to making change in our industry and so groups are working on ways that we can help, get more people of color in our industry and find them and they’re there and they’re so committed to this. It's exciting to see and we will make change within our agency for the better.

Sanjit: And that seems like it’s got to inform this ever-evolving notion of what cultural leadership is both in terms of the responsibility but also the opportunity to grow and develop that…… Well this has been fantastic, thank you both for joining me today.